Category: Let's talk
One of the jobs of the school is not only to educate children, but also to protect them while parents leave them in the school's care for seven hours. While schools have been working on anti-bullying rules, there have also been other rules established against sexual harassment, disruptions, and general physical safety. But I think most situations that are said to violate these rules are going too far. I'll provide several examples here along with my comments on each.
A first grader was being choked on the school bus by an older kid, so he defensively hit the kid in the nuts. Guess who was punished. If you guessed the bully choking the kid out, you guessed wrong. The kid who hit the bully in the nuts was punished for sexual harassment. Personally, I do not see how hitting someone in the nuts out of self-defense is sexual harassment. When a person is being hurt in any way, the goal is to do anything possible to get their assailant to stop. If that means hitting them where it hurts the most, sobeit.
A six-year-old boy was on the school playground with his best friend, and his friend fell and scraped his knee. To comfort his friend, the boy hugged him. The boy was suspended for a day or two for unwanted touching. But the boy who scraped his knee did not complain, the teacher who saw it complained. What?! How could hugging be sexual harassment? The hug is a symbol of caring and compassion. I mean, children can't even show their friends compassion anymore?
A nine-year-old boy was suspended for two days for telling his teacher she was cute. This kid was suspended for sexual harassment. I have several problems with this story, the first being the freedom of speech issue. I don't think calling anyone cute violates the freedom of speech clause in the First Amendment. Also, if a teacher can charge a child in school with sexual harassment for saying she is cute, what's stopping every other woman who receives such comments from doing the same thing?
A thirteen-year-old boy was arrested, yes, taken away in handcuffs, from his gym class for burping. His gym teacher said that the boy was burping audibly in class, which is an offense that marked him as a danger to society. Really, criminalizing burping? I don't see what danger it could cause unless the kid has halitosis (jk).
Lastly, no story here, but just a mention of all the bans in school on: balls, toy guns/weapons, pretending to commit any violent actions such as fighting, shooting, and so on. And too, all the editing, censorship, and banning of movies, books, and other media to protect children from swear words, violent behavior, sexual behavior, and any kind of prejudice and outcasting is appalling. My first issue with this is that the school's job is to educate children, but it looks like it's becoming more the parents' job. This is hard because the home could never offer the same social setting that the school provides. And while it is the parents' job to teach coping with teasing and differences within oneself and others, that there are people who are violent, intolerant, and ignorant, that there are certain behaviors that are and are not acceptable, it is the schools job to reinforce these lessons. If the upcoming generations are sheltered from such things, I really believe all these bans are going to make children into weak-willed and naive people who will have trouble coping and acclimating with the culture of older members of society. Also, our freedoms of speech and expression are already restricted, so these people are working hard to further restrict them.
Concerning the sexual harassment stories, I understand that everyone's sexual nature develops at different times in their life, but I truly believe that children under the age of nine or ten, and perhaps even then, do not have a sexual nature. Yes, it is possible for children to be attracted to other children, but I do not think such attractions are sexual. I believe that sexuality is imposed upon children by older members of the family unit and society. Even if children did have a sexual nature, any action they commit that could be characterized as sexual harassment, would not have the intention of harassment because children are ignorant of such things.
It scares me that these events are even happening, and every time I hear about similar stories, I feel like this stuff is surreal. I wish it was because it all seems like a nightmare, and sounds like news from a different country. I now have less respect for the education system than I ever had, and I think the school is not a good place for children anymore. School is supposed to prepare children for their entrance to the real world, and the upcoming generation will be ill-prepared.
I am most afraid of and infuriated by such stories because if schools can get away with such rules and punishments, there is a possibility that they could make their way into the the workplace and other establishements.
Opinions?
I could start, but I would never stop. Suffice it to say: ridiculass!
Some have taken the acronym PDA and transferred its use to 'Public Display of Affection'. Ironic that it would be the knee-jerk reaction types, those who are usually most ardent opponents of the sciences and technology, to co-opt a technological acronym.
One incident to add to your list:
A senior in high school in Florida was helping her parents move, and in so doing a steak knife fell out of one of the boxes into the truck bed. When she got to school the next day she was suspended on grounds of a zero-tolerance rule because a steak knife was found in the open bed of the pickup she was driving.
Who, in attempting to smuggle a shank, would lay it exposed in an open truck bed?
Zero tolerance rules are just way for lazy, incompetent and feeble people to outsource judgment calls. Lazy, feeble-minded and weak people unfit to live except as wards of the state. They're usually paid by the state, so I guess they're halfway there when you combine the income source with the acquiescence of responsible judgment calls.
As to the harrassment issue, these ridiculous harrassment claims make a mockery of real harrassment victims. If you ever meet one of those, as I have, you can see and appreciate what it is they've actually been through, at least to a point. They weren't offended, or up-ended, by what they overheard, or their delicate undersized constitutions couldn't forebear themselves to see. No, they are preyed upon, cornered, trapped, and the way out is tragically difficult.
No harrasser could make such a mockery of these victims as have the fools posing as harrassment protectors. Said protectors would never deign to get their hands dirty putting down predators. They'd much prefer to just toy with the idea, make themselves popular in their own circles, and feel like they did something. That's worse than a very bad drug trip!
I'll give you an example from my own life:
It was 4th grade and I was grabbed by some fool. I raised my cane with my other hand and swung it at him. He ducked naturally. I grabbed him and said, "do you know what you are? You're a coward!" Now the kid cried to the bus driver. "wa wa wa, Kevin tried to hit me and then called me a name!" I said, "I called him a coward--look at him he obviously is, hell I bet he wet himself!" This was met with much jeering--you know how kids are. I was whisked to the principal's office the moment we got to school. It's just not right but this is the system. It is just one of many things wrong with it.
I think the antibullying movement is a classic example of treating the symptoms rather than the cause. first of all, trying to prevent bullying is really not going to stop it. why? because kids don't bully one another because they think it's OK. No, they bully them usually because they themselves feel powerless or out of control. Kids who partake in this type of behavior don't need a suspension from school and a lecture about how they're being mean to a helpless kid. what they need is to get involved in activities that will help give them back some semblance of control without harming other people in the process. I.E. sports, art, music.
also, this sends a message the the kids on the receiving end of this bullying that they are victims. Now, I know what some of you will probably say. But, they are victims. They're innocent people who were hurt through no fault of their own. and yes, you are right. However, we shouldn't be showing these kids that they are helpless victims. We should be showing them that they are the better people for not giving into this bahavior. we should be making them feel proud for knowing that they don't have to resort to this type of behavior to make them feel valid. we should be teaching them to control the situation themselves by not giving the aggressor what he or she wants. Because in the real world, these kids aren't going to have some school official going, OK, Mikey. Leave Johnnie alone, now. You shouldn't do that stuff.
As for the sexual related offences, everyone here has pretty much covered everything I was thinking already. Humans were meant to be social animals, and yes, this includes physical interaction. it doesn't have to be sexual, but these 0 tolerance policies are doing nothing but teaching kids that every touch is a bad touch. and we wonder why there are so many people crying rape when nobody has done anything wrong.
Most of this embodies my thoughts as well. Many of the "offenses" are completely harmless. And the ones which are truly bullying/harassment need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis. It's far too easily to just slap a label on someone without considering the circumstances.
Most of this atitude I feel comes from this political correctness gobbelty-goo that we are shoving down peopl's gullets. Make it stop!
I tend to go with George Carlin's theory on this one. this country is raised to be dumb, to serve the power mongers, so they can keep doing what they do without having to worry about people speaking up, or having the guts and the intelligence to overthrow them.
And people wonder why I have so little faith in our society. It just flabbergasts me how stupid these people are. So if I was in school and a close friend had just come back after, let's say a long illness or some other sort of family emergency I could get arrested and charged with sexual harrassment just for giving him/her a hug hello. I always knew the authorities were stupid but that stupid? No wonder this country's such a mess. And I'm not just talking about the edcational system, although that is indeed a prime example of how far over the edge we've gone. What's next, making it profanity when a blind child uses the word blind? Just shoot me now. LOL.
It's like Animal Farm. Remember the pigs? Now remember the sheep?
I think the one I found most outrageous, aside from the kid who got in trouble for doing the only thing he could think of under pressure to stop the bully from choking him, was the one about the boy who got suspended for sexual harassment simply for telling his teacher she was cute. Maybe I could understand it if it was a teenager who was aware of the sexual harassment angle and could be clearly shown to have harbored a sexual interest in said teacher, but we're talking about a nine-year-old boy here. I agree that it probably has to do with the political correctness bullshit that plagues us these days. It's the same bullshit that makes some people pronounce the words Harass and Harassment as Harris Harrisment. Excuse me, but Harris is a name. Even Eloquence is subject to that rule, depressingly enough. And speaking of screen readers, look carefully at the spelling if you don't get what I'm trying to say.
Exactly, and I'm sure the kid thought it was innocent enough because he'd probably heard his parents calling other kids cute, and figured the teacher would know he meant it in that context.
wow all i can say is this world just seems to be getting worse by the day.
It's all of this unnecisary coddling that is done.
I totally understand now why a lot of parents opt for home schooling, although should you choose that avenue, i would highly recommend getting your kids involved in some sort of extra-curricular activities to make sure they are used to socializing with their peers. I've often heard that's the one downside to home schooling, that some kids don't end up getting enough social time, especially those activities that encourage them to get used to working with others they may not necessarily get along with.
I agree. If I ever have kids I'd almost be tempted to home school them just to avoid this kind of crap. If a bullying victim is the one who gets in trouble for doing the only thing he could think of to get out of a potentially life-threatening situation then there's something wrong with the system.
I know many who were home schooled and they are certainly stunted big time.
I don't recomend it.
And I know just as many who turned out just fine. I'm sorry, but if the education system is going to be this way I'm not subjecting my kids to it. Hell, a close friend of mine is having just such problems with her son being bullied and nobody doing anything about it. I don't know all the details but from her Facebook posts the latest incident was something pretty serious.
Home schooling can be great, as long as you know what you're doing. I've actually known a few kids that were home schooled, they're a lot smarter, better at steering clear of drama, better able to socialize with all age groups, and certainly a lot more mature than a lot of kids who are mainstreamed. Now, of course this certainly isn't everybody, but public education really isn't doing kids any favors.
Great posts to all of you!
The stats really aren't in yet on homeschooled. There will always be exceptions, both good and bad. Interesting earlier one says I know many, and the next says I know just as many, without knowing what quantity the first one's 'many' actually means.
But seriously. Let's see how well they perform in careers, how well they work on teams, etc.
The problem with their current evaluations is it tends to be more based on dogma, or pre-derived conclusions, the sort of measurements you wouldn't even use to build a stick house, so they have lost my attention already.
I'm not technically opposed to the idea: only saying the jury is still out on it.
And within recent years, homeschoolers have networked - a very important skill for all types of people - and created co-ops where parents of one specialization or another will teach certain classes, and where the extracurricular activities are arranged.
For those who say some are stunted: some really are. I'm completely blind, and so could not see one of my daughter's friends who has been homeschooled her whole life looked like a teenager. I thought honestly she was a ten-year-old sister coming along with the rest of them. That is, of course, total anecdote and without merit when it comes to an actual measurement.
The problem does tend to be dogma though. You know how on here many will say, it's a sighted world. And, in fact, it is. It is also a diverse one, and these sheltered shut-ins tend to have a dogma-entitlement wellfare mentality where they believe it's their right that science, engineering, and other developed disciplines bow and cater to how they feel, rather than what actually exists. I have a profound problem with that mentality, and make no mistake about it, it's a wellfare mentality: religion or dogma wellfare, and is as much a entitlement mentality as you'll find in the projects or anyplace else.
Just as nobody is going to accomodate us, nobody is expected to accomodate them either. And their problem isn't the ability to read a diagram or what's on the blackboard, it's a babyish problem with how they feel about what's on the blackboard or the diagram. To that end, they do not have my sympathies, and they're just gonna have to suck it up and deal, just like the rest of us.
Oh every one of my friends that were home schooled is now successfully employed. So it can definitely be a workable option.
I see Leo's point, though. In a way, it goes back to my earlier point that if you don't know what you're doing, it's a recipe for disaster. But public education is biased in many ways, too. I'm Canadian, and in school we had to learn a lot of ancient world history, but from the time Canada came to be as we know it, the history lessons had a serious emphasis on the Canadian aspect of it, until I took an actual history course in twelfth grade. I don't know if this is still the case, but Americans I've talked to said they only had to learn american history in school, and most of them don't even seem to know half their own geography, let alone any other world geography. Just an example of how even public education is biased.
Oh nobody's arguing the possible down sides. But I don't like the disdainful way I've heard some people speak when they find out somebody's home schooled, as though there was absolutely no way that a home schooled kid could ever get a good job.
My husband and I have agreed that when will be homeschooled. My mother-in-law is a public school teacher on one of the first nations reserves. I know that she's going to flip out when we tell her this, for the simple reason that we had a friend at our housewarming party who homeschools her kids, and the teacher and homeschool mom nearly came to blows...
As a teacher, I think my mother-in-law is awesome, and I think the school system needs more teachers like her - take no crap from anyone, but willing to help if at all possible.
Kate
Look home schooled kids are so poorly adjusted compared to kids in regular school. Now I do think the education system is horrible however at least it is a working system. It functions all be it minimally.
you're all looking at this the wrong way, you're taking extremes and saying it's the norm. it's not! but there's problems I agree but we should look at less radical cases and what normally goes on. not everyone takes things to this extreme, you know. I know tons of school teachers that'll agree with you that this is riddiculous and that's a lot of them too.There's a problem with schools but this ain't the one.
It's certainly one of them.
I personally would never put a child of my own through public schooling. Public schools are now providing more of a miseducation than an education. Why should I send my child to a place where they will learn nothing about personal problem solving and soon, won't be able to read a damn book in school if the censoring bullshit continues. Also, I'm not willing to put up with idiots who suspend my child for trying to save their own lives or for slapping five with a buddy. That is a waste of time.
Besides the point of public school is to prepare you for college and the adult world. They do a very poor job of that in my opinion, so if I had a child, I would school it myself, or hire someone.
And think about this: there are children who are sent to public schools who also turn out to be very sheltered and ill-adjusted. Also, while some home-schooled children might have trouble adjusting to college, the workplace, or whatever after leaving the nest, most of them pull through; it isn't impossible. For all the struggles we had to pull through in public school, home-schooled children are likely to have to deal with the adjustment issue, and they turn out fine. I understand we should try to help our children to be as advanced and adjusted as possible, but is a social life more important than one's education? Perhaps they are equally important, but if a person takes their home-schooled child to family functions, church gatherings, community centers, or just the neighborhood playground, I'm sure they won't melt when they go to college or get their first job. Let's be real.
To be fare, it is not a school's job to teach your child how to solve personal problems. You as the parent must actually do some of the leg work.
I understand that, but my point is that the responsibility is shared between the parent and the school. Children are the schools' responsibility for at least seven hours a day. I would hope that for that time, if anything happened, the school would do what they could for my child until I could take care of things. But the schools are dumping more and more responsibility on the parents, so kids may as well be home-schooled.
The school didn't give birth to the child did it? Dumping more and more on the parent? Well don't you think that in todays screwed up society the parent needs to step in a bit?
Given the current state of public education, I would answer "yes" to that question. And half the time teachers shove down kids throats that some things parents tell them are wrong, like the pronunciation of some words, reasoning behind political views, and so on. A family member of mine doesn't vote in elections by choice because they personally believe that neither party is worth giving a vote to. Fair enough. Personally I want to vote, if nothing else, to give me the right to say what I want if I'm not happy with the government, but everyone has an opinion and everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the teachers at school used to tell me they were incredibly selfish, and doing the country a disservice by not exercising their right to vote. OK, another valid opinion, but it's just that; an opinion, but they were telling this to me like it was the cold hard fact, end of story. And, last time I checked, voting was a right; not a requirement. should that ever change, then I would understand where the teachers are coming from.
I don't think you're understanding my point here. I am saying that schools are doing a poorer job of protecting and educating children. What's being taught in schools is moving further from the truth, and schools are doing more to protect themselves rather than doing more to protect their students. It's now all about censorship and religion, gender, and cultural neutrality, and about avoiding lawsuits, when what they're really doing is miseducating children and causing more lawsuits. If it's going to be the parents' job to correct what the school teaches their children, then what's the point of sending them to school for educational purposes?
I do see your point now. However what you are talking about has been going on for a verry long time. Should we move to a home schooling nation? I personally don't like the sound of that.
Of course tere are going to be people who misuse it. THe same is painfully true of schools for the blind. I've known quite a few people who never attended a regular school during their formative years and when the time came to leave the Blind School they had no coping skills. But that doesn't make all blind schools bad. THis is true of public schools and yes, home scooling as well. But I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable sending my kids to a public school the way things are going these days. Patricularly not if I got even one int that my kid was going to get busted for sexual harassment just because he gave his friend a hug.
Indeed, schools for the blind are simply no good from what I've observed from others.
No, I do not think we should be a home-schooling nation. I'm not sure what the solid solution to this problem would be, but the issue is that if anyone makes a stink about something, the schools will try to restrict or expand to include or exclude whatever the person or group is complaining about. Example: Muslim parents complaining about the celebration of Christmas in the classroom/school. The school's solution is to throw out the Christmas celebration altogether. Yes, that one child could sit out, go somewhere else, or stay home during the celebration, but no one should be excluded, so no Christmas parties in school, and all because one or two people complain. That is one example among many that speaks to the fact that as time progresses, majority rules less and less. All it takes is a couple parents or one organization to complain, and the rules must be changed. Are we kidding? That makes no sense to me at all.
The problem is that these few are taking over, while the majority sit back and do nothing, or perhaps they do complain and are ignored?
The answer is not to become a home-schooling state, but I would not want my child to end up on the sex offenders' list for hugging or slapping five with a friend. That is beyond ridiculous.
As for schools for the blind, I never attended one, but perhaps they are helpful to students who have multiple impairments?
It doesn't make sense to me in the least. I will say that the schools are rediculous but what can we really do about it?
Definitely agree with Raven here. In the real world, you don't get to mold your environment around one complaint, so why should it be the case in school?
You know, I don't know if I'd actually do this, but it would be an interesting little experiment nevertheless. if I ever have kids in the public education system, I want to get together with at least one other parent who likes the idea, and have one of us complain about one thing, and the other complain about the exact opposite, and see which complaint prevails.
LOL that would be interesting.
I don't believe we should bea homeschooling nation, but I don't believe that homeschooling should be outlawed like it is in some countries (such as Sweden and Germany, I believe).
Wow. It's actually outlawed? That's ridiculous.
Like I said, it's one of those things, if you know what you're doing, it can be great, and if not, it's a recipe for disaster. should that decision be left to the parents as to whether their doing it right or not? that's a whole other topic entirely.
Or maybe, just enroll more kids in online schooling. That way, the parent is not taking the education of their child/ren into their own hands.
I know that wouldn't work for such classes like gym, and wouldn't make up for the social aspect of school, but the educational value of public school is decreasing, in my opinion anyhow.
You want gym get the kids a treadmill. Lol. The problem with home schooling is that often the parent teaches the kid his or her own ways and teaches them to reject all others. This means we have nut jobs cranking out more nut jobs.
Try being a manager and hiring some of these people. To do an actual job, where they may interface with an international audience.
Public school, contrary to conspiracy opinion, iss a response to markets. You need to know what you're getting when you require a high school diploma. That's hard enough as I learned a bit of a lesson moving from the Pacific northwest to the southeast.
It's not about control it's about standards: hire people for awhile and you'll see what comes of various groups. Fundamentalist enclaves and LA projects are equally, if differently, undesirable and expensive places to get good employees from.
If you can't operate on the ground with people who think, believe, function and look different from you, anymore you're not a commodity the market wants. The leftist do-gooders aren't pummelling that one kids: the very markets the Right supposedly adores are responsible for it. It can be amusing to observe at a distance, quite troubling when you have to work around it and still try to get things done.
I definitely agree that te educational value of public schools and evensome colleges is decreasing, especially given the stories about hazing that recently came to light about a certain Florida, or Flori-duh as a fellow Zoner once called it, university.
Let's not look at indevidual schools, rather, let's take a look at the education system as a whole. That is the real problem.
I don't have a problem with parents teaching children, because as you have already pointed out Margorp, they already do. If parents will teach their children to accept their ways and reject all others, you don't need to home-school them for that.
Also, parents can enroll children in online schooling or hire a private tutor/s.
I've had a couple friends who were homeschooled, and one of them made Valedictorian in her class after being homeschooled for a few years and going to public school for high school. So yes, I would agree that home schooling works if you know what you're doing. I would also agree that the blind schools are crap. If it was all up to me, I would tell every blind person to go to a public school, because I think it is important to interact with the sighted world as well, rather than just the blind. Schools for the blind tend to shelter people, and I know that from experience, because I went to one for a year and I deeply regret it.
Just as home schooling can shelter people. I no many people who were home schooled and, well, they are just so sheltered it's not funny.
I would say it's not just the home schooling itself that's to blame for that but thhe parents as well for not seeing to it that the kids were still able to get involved in social activities.
I agree with Brian. I think it's kind of a general statement to say that homeschooling a child can shelter that child, because a lot of the people I've met who were homeschooled were pretty darn smart. But the problem that I have with the schools for the blind in this country is that the staff are a lot of the time overprotective of the students. And that's why I feel strongly that blind people should be placed in a public school setting. I feel like blind schools shelter people more than homeschooling a child. Our school for the blind here in New Mexico is not just for blind people, it's for people who are mentally disabled as well, and I think that when you're around mentally disabled people a lot, and the staff are trying to take care of those mentally disabled, it's hard to really take care of the blind person as well and get out and socialize because you're dealing with 2 different disabilities. Of course the parent needs to let the blind or homeschooled child out and socialize as well because that's obviously very important. A lot of times, I hear of blind people who graduate from schools for the blind, and they're not even half ready to go to college and pursue a degree. I'm not saying all blind people who go to blind schools graduate that way, but the majority of blind people who I know do, and it's pretty unfortunate. What we need in this country is a group of blind schools who have staff who actually know what they're doing, and are trained to actually teach blind people, and who will actually let them get out of the dorms and go socialize somewhere.
Raven brought up a really good point that I really agree with. If the parents want to shelter the child, they don't have to be home schooled to do it. a child doesn't have to be home schooled for the parents to try to ingrain their own, biased beliefs on them.
Yes I also agree with brian that it is the parents. But that's why home schooling can become so dangerous.
Again it's not the home schooling itself that's the problem but the manner in which it's done.Because as I said before for every home schooled person I've met tat turned out emotionally crippled I've met just as many who are just as capable and well-adjusted as the rest of us.
I suppose.
The problem is, the idea of homeschooling is one of such profound independence and autonomy that those who are really good at it don't actually want to be the standards-setters they really could be. And again, it's a challenge not exclusive to homeschoolers, just exacerbated in that particular environment.
The Australians have been doing the homeschooling for generations now, but they use standardized curricula and units of measure.
Wow. Now that I didn't know. Guess I gotta find me a nice Australian gal to settle down with LOL.
As long as she is willing to pay for airfare. lol.